O&R 60

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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:34 pm

I was so pleased with my O&R23 that I bought a larger version off eBay.It has no size on the casting but I am guessing it is about a 60.It looks to be in good condition except there are a couple of bits missing.The prop driver is not there.The points look good.There is a cicular sleeve around the propshaft rather than a cam to open and close the points.I guess it may have been altered to glow.There is a groove in the propshaft but no circlip or similar in it.How do I set about restoring it? Does anyone offer this service or sell the parts?
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Parts

Postby viking61 » Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:23 am

Woody at areoelectric will have parts. I guess you need timer assembly. Tanks for these need to be medal due to use of fuel changes in gas. Burnis Ray is another guy for parts. I belive Max Hansen could hepl out here to and he posts on this site. All mentioned are good guys. Chuck Bartunic is a possible choice also. I have two 60's and a .29 O&R that are excellent shape. cheers,Viking61
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O&R .60

Postby max hansen » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:46 am

Hi JIm , If you will list the serial # off the rear of the crankcase I can probably lell you it's age . Burnis is out of the .60 tanks right now . The timer assy fits all the O&R engines . The cover you have on the front housing is covering the ignition cam on the crankshaft . The shaft should be ground for the points .Any help ? MAX H. :lol:
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O&R60

Postby jim paton » Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:11 pm

Hi Max
Thanks for the post.I am abroad visiting my son in New Zealand at the moment.I will get the serial number when I go home in a months time.Thereis a brass/bronze sleeve around the propshaft which is cylindrical rather than eccentric.I will post a picture to you if you have an email addressthat you are happy to reveil.The points are there but they do not move.They stay open.It sounds like it has been modified,from your description.There is no cover for the points assembly,so it is all readily visible.It came with a spark plug in good condition.
Jim
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:23 pm

Hi Jim, Let me know when you get home & then we can figure out what's going on . No big problem though . CYL, MAX H. :lol:
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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:12 am

This is the engine

Image

Image
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:08 am

Jim , In addition to my answer on the points & by your pictures I think your engine is what is called a "Bulls-eye" model made from October of 1946 up until they came out with the one with out the beam mounting lugs . Looks like it should be a good runner. CYL, MAX H. :lol:
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Postby walt » Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:59 am

Jim, I expect Max answered this privately, but if not, it looks to me as if your points are in wrong, and the point spring is in the cam slot. If it can't just be rotated around into correct position, the housing will need to be removed/rotated into the correct position. The housing screws that hold the timer arm on may have to be removed in order to rotate it into the correct position so that the moving point tail fits in the cam slot. Max probably explained it better already.
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O&R.60

Postby viking61 » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:21 am

Like Walt said your timer assembly is on backwards. Both of my .60's arm is on other side of engine. Anyway thats what it looks like.
Dan
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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:54 am

Thanks to all.You are both in agreement with Max's pm to me.I am looking forward to getting it running.I use a Texas Timers electronic ignition on my O&R 23. I will do the same with this.I sometimes think progress went backwards in the 1950s and1960s when I was first into this.,Models were too small,Keil Kraft kits were often virtually unflable , Jetex was useless etc. I wonder why I persisted.It is amazing how good the power/weight ratio is with O&R engines.I suspect I may have to build a pretty large model.
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Postby walt » Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:51 am

Jim, I expect you persisted for the same reason/reasons many of us did. One of the biggest being that there's a love of flying and things that fly that defies all difficulties. You don't give up on something you love just because it's a little rough at times.

Enjoy flying those old O&R's. They're good old engines, but don't expect the Rocket climbs you get from some of the hotter brands. I used to love watching my old Playboy, Jr. with it's O&R 23. It never won a thing, but it was still beautiful to watch.
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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:34 am

I am sure you are right Walt: love and masochism!!
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Postby walt » Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:41 am

<I am sure you are right Walt: love and masochism!!>

Oh, yeah! I forgot about that one. LoL!
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Postby collie » Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:16 pm

A Teardrop 60, with the point housing in the wrong position by the looks of it.
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O&R .60

Postby jerry1927 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:33 pm

Jim,

I can add a little to what you've already been told. Your O&R was mfd. before 1947. That year, O&R issued their radial-mount-only versions, retaining the small, elliptical exhaust stack. Later models employed very large, flared stacks and kept them through all later models.

It is possible the timer is OK but has been positioned 180 degrees off location. The timer arm position can be switched but, normally, the stationary point is nearly upright for running. The moving point actuator should extend through the slot in the crankshaft bushing to contact the milled-in-place cam on the c'shaft. If it does not, it is possible the c'shaft front plate will need to be rotated 60 degrees clockwise or ccw. When properly positioned, the timer slot will be opposite the timer spring. Internally, your timer appears to be complete and OK except for its position.

Good luck.

Jerry
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O&R .60

Postby max hansen » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:48 pm

Hi Jim , I see the beam mounts that Jerry pointed out . I must have had a senior moment when I missed them . The front cover is on correct as you can see the notch at the 12:00 position for the piston skirt clearance . I think like we all said that the timer is on about a 180 degrees off . You will notice that you will have the two bolts that hold the timer arm that one is longer than the other . It is used as a stop to keep the timer from rotating too far . It goes between two of the webs on the front cover . Is this clear or have I confused you more ? Any how what you have all looks OK . Have fun , MAX H. :)
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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:59 pm

Well,I at last got my act together and had it running.I used straight glow fuel in an ordinary tank and a 14 *6 plastic propellor.It fired after a couple of turns choked.I was expecting it to be much noisier than my 23, but it was revving slower so it was not too bad.I just gave it a short run before disconnecting the ignition.The battery for my starter then went flat ,so its only had one short run.I think it may need a smaller prop.The timer arm is about the 9 o'clock position.Is this about right? I didn.t try altering it when it was running.Is clockwise movement of the arm advance? I have a wooden 12*6, so I will try that tomorrow, after I have bought a 12 volt battery charger. I like to keep my fingers out of the way and use an electric starter.
Thanks for all your help.Yes it does have a beam mount,which is a big improvement over my 23!
Now what I really need is a 19 that I could use in our Open Power classes (max of 3.5 cc)
My 23 still runs a dream and pulls my competition free flight model up vertically.I still haven't got its trim sorted,but I am working on it. It needs a bit of VIT,auto-rudder and wing wiggler.However I make do with changes of down and side thrust, and rudder trim!
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:53 pm

Glad to hear that you have it running . The only O&R I have right now to look at is a Custom & they are just a little different than a Special but close .You move the arm down to retard & up to advance ,9 o-clock should be advanced pretty good . I don't remember using over a # 4 pitch on a 14 or 15 inch prop . Good luck with it . Max H. :)
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Postby chiefss » Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:45 pm

How do you post pictures on this web site?
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:17 pm

Got me. MAX H. :)
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Postby walt » Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:30 am

Look in the FAQ section for instructions.
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O&R 60 spark ignition

Postby jim paton » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:06 am

Well, it now keeps backfiring and throwing props.I had a Cox TD that did that till I realised it had a non TD head on by mistake. Does this mean my new Rimfire spark plug is protruding into the cylinder and increasing the compression.Altering the needle valve or retarding the ignition does not seem to help.Would it be better on petrol rather than 80/20 methanol/castor oil?
All help appreciated.
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:13 pm

Chances are that your spark plug is getting so hot on glow fuel that it is glowing like a glow plug & changing the timing . Possible carbon in the head glowing also . Try the gas & oil mixture . Max H.
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O&R

Postby viking61 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:36 pm

If you use 80/20 fuel your problem is lack of oil. Use Fox super fuel. 28% oil/ 5% nitro/ rest alky.
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:58 pm

Remember that you are working with a engine designed 65 years ago to run on a 3 to 1 gas & 80 weight motor oil mixture. Never lost a prop on the gas burners . O&R's will also blow the cylinders off with too hot of a fuel. Have fun , MAX H.
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O&R .60

Postby jerry1927 » Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Jim,

Please allow me to offer a word of advice: When starting O&R engines, a modeler using an electric starter is a bad idea. The prop drive washer must rub against the bronze c'shaft bushing and will get little lubrication, possibly damaging the bushing. There is no good way to install a "reverse thrust" bearing to permit safe electric starters on O&R engines, so I strongly recommend staying with hand starts.

Jerry
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O&R 60 spark ignition

Postby jim paton » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:19 am

I think I am slowly getting to grips with this engine,but I am not completely there yet.I don't know what I did right to get it running the first time!
When I bought the O&R 23 the intake was loose so I put some epoxy around it.Is there a better way? I read somewhere that it is just a push fit.
The screw for the lead attachment to the point is loose. As it runs well, and as the prop driver is tight on the crankshaft, I am loth to take it off.If I tighten up the nut on the fibre washer will this affect the timing and the points gap? Is this how the points gap should be adjusted?( I have done it servicing my car years ago before electronic ignition.)What should the gap be? I could really do with a manual!
Thanks for the advice about hand starting.
Max do you sell contact assemblies?
Regards
Jim
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O&R

Postby max hansen » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:48 am

Hi Jim , the intake on the very early engines screwed in but aluminum to aluminum will sometimes gaul the threads . All the others are cast into the case when they are made . I usually use a little JB Weld on mine . You should be able to tighten the nut on the points & it may change the clearance . They say that the points should be set with a piece of cellophane . That may be a little close but they don't need to open much . I usually bend the moving point to do it . I have no extra points & then again I have never found any bad . They are available over here from a couple of suppliers . That's about all the help I have . Good luck , MAX H. :)
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Postby walt » Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:33 am

If that moving point is hardened, you stand a good chance of breaking it as I did to several, years ago. They were easy to replace back then. These were standard (old style) O&R points.
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O&R 60

Postby jim paton » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:58 am

With the points just breaking the lever is at the 8 o'clock position for TDC.Does this sound reasonable.Actually when I say breaking,I still need to make the adjustment so they open, either by bending the spring or somehow unscrewing the fixed point.The nut on the thread attached to the fixed point doesn't want to go tight for some reasonI will try adding a washer in a minute.
Should there be a circlip about 5/8" dia behind the prop driver washer to keep the crankshaft forward in position? There appears to be a groove for one, and I do have to pull the shaft forward for the spring to sit in the ground away part of the crankshaft.
Nearly there ,I hope!!
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