Beginners question - how do i set up my boat engine ?

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Beginners question - how do i set up my boat engine ?

Postby helen » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:37 am

Hello from the UK everybody .

I have inherited a 48" fibreglass hull along with a box of RC bits and pieces and and engine described as a "Panther Marine 46 with pull start" .

Hours of web searching tells me this company has ceased to exist but i found the Macoa 46. Marine with pull start and it appears to be identical ?

Please answer the following questions for me
1, Where do the 2 pipes attached to the engine head lead ?
2, Does the pipe on the carb run directly to the fuel tank ?
3, Is the bullet shaped part on the right side a muffler and where should the rubber pipe attached to it lead ?
4, i have a plug in tool that i assume to be a starter as it fits so well over the spark plug , but i can find nothing that attaches to the plug to power a spark once the engine is running , am i missing something and if so what ?

Thanks in advance for any answers and i'd be ever so grateful for a link to a diagram or pictures .

This is my first attempt at RC and i fear i will blow it up before i get started !
helen
 
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Re: Beginners question - how do i set up my boat engine ?

Postby SteveM » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:54 pm

helen wrote:Hello from the UK everybody .

I have inherited a 48" fibreglass hull along with a box of RC bits and pieces and and engine described as a "Panther Marine 46 with pull start" .

Hours of web searching tells me this company has ceased to exist but i found the Macoa 46. Marine with pull start and it appears to be identical ?

Please answer the following questions for me
1, Where do the 2 pipes attached to the engine head lead ?
2, Does the pipe on the carb run directly to the fuel tank ?
3, Is the bullet shaped part on the right side a muffler and where should the rubber pipe attached to it lead ?
4, i have a plug in tool that i assume to be a starter as it fits so well over the spark plug , but i can find nothing that attaches to the plug to power a spark once the engine is running , am i missing something and if so what ?

Thanks in advance for any answers and i'd be ever so grateful for a link to a diagram or pictures .

This is my first attempt at RC and i fear i will blow it up before i get started !


1) The two nipples on the cylinder head are the in/out for water cooling. You will have a water pickup on the back end of the rudder, or in some cases use a separate water pickup off the transom or through the bottom of the hull. One nipple is connected with fuel tubing to that water pickup, the other is used to expel the water overboard.

2) The tuned uxhaust pipe/muffler nipple connects to the fuel tank vent. This helps pressurize the fuel tank to help the feed the carb. Your tank must have only a fuel pickup and the vent. DO NOT use a three line fuel tank.

3) Not sure what you mean by bullet shaped part. Any pics?

4) Your motor has a glow plug, not a spark plug. You need to connect that to a 1.5V - 2.0V battery or similar to make the coil in the glow plug glow. Once you've got the motor running with the pull-start, the glow clip can be removed from the glow plug and your motor should keep running.
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Thanks it's starting to make sense now .

Postby helen » Sun Aug 30, 2009 3:00 am

A quick web search found this engine with a similar "bullet shaped" attachment , i assumed it to be an exhaust though it doesn't look like any exhaust i have seen because i can't think what else it may be ?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 8%26um%3D1

Also i had hoped to add a fuel cap , connected to the tank via a pipe , to the deck so i could refill without having to remove the upper structure , is this a bad idea ?

I'll say thanks again because the subject note is almost un-noticable in the post .
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Postby SteveM » Sun Aug 30, 2009 5:44 am

The large piece on the right side of the motor is the muffler as used in aircraft. On a boat you normally do not use that muffler, but instead use a tuned pipe connected to a short header pipe. Lots of good information at www.impba.net and pictures of boats with tuned pipes.
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Reply

Postby helen » Mon Aug 31, 2009 2:14 am

Thanks again Steven M , but i'm a long way from worrying about increasing power , i just want to get it up and running as is , so perhaps you could tell me why the muffler has a nozzle with a rubber pipe connected to it ? what is its purpose ? where should the pipe lead ?

Sorry for the slow response as we are in different time zones i would assume you sleep when i'm awake and visa versa .
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Re: Reply

Postby SteveM » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:27 am

helen wrote:Thanks again Steven M , but i'm a long way from worrying about increasing power , i just want to get it up and running as is , so perhaps you could tell me why the muffler has a nozzle with a rubber pipe connected to it ? what is its purpose ? where should the pipe lead ?

Sorry for the slow response as we are in different time zones i would assume you sleep when i'm awake and visa versa .



Used to expel the exhaust gook out of the hull. You will need to route that rubber pipe overboard.
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Postby sfry » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:17 am

Helen

Where are you? I live in Gloucester and it would be a lot simpler if you were close enough for me to sort it out for you.

Cheers

Stuart :D
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reply

Postby helen » Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:02 pm

Thanks Steve M , though exhaust gook makes me wonder , it seems unlikely that hot exhaust gases are expelled through a thin plastic pipe but as i've said before this is all new to me . As long as it is only a waste outlet i'm happy to go ahead now with trial and error , i just wish i could find out about - The MFA Panther 46 Marine with pull start Part No 1040 . At least then i'd know what fuel mix to use .

Perhaps someone should upload a simple diagram called RC gas/petrol boat engines for beginners , explaining all this as it seems the entire web is dedicated to people who are experts and are considering world speed records or space travel !

Anyway thanks Steve for taking the time to get me started and hopefully in a few months i will post pics of a working Pelorus style RC Superyacht !
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Postby SteveM » Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:36 am

I've run K&B and Picco marine motors from 3.5cc to 7.5cc and used Byron 25% nitro fuel. I even tried 40% for a while but didn't find much of a performance gian for the price difference. Keep in mind that these were pure race motors and I was running a tuned pipe.

Your motor looks more like a converted airplane motor and I recommend you use a milder fuel, perhaps something with 10% to 15% nitro content. I used to add one ounce of Sig AA castor oil to my gallon jug of fuel as extra peace of mind. Marine engines operate in harsh conditions and the extra oil just gives them a little more protection.
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Postby helen » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:43 am

Thanks again Steve M im hoping plain old fashioned petrol (or gas as Americans call it) with a drop of 2-stroke oil will work , but i have little doubt this is just wishful thinking .
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Re: Reply

Postby SteveM » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:42 am

helen wrote:Thanks again Steve M im hoping plain old fashioned petrol (or gas as Americans call it) with a drop of 2-stroke oil will work , but i have little doubt this is just wishful thinking .


DO NOT use regular pump petrol as fuel.
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Postby helen » Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:56 am

Wow , the fewer the words the the more effective the warning , point taken , thank you again !
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Postby SteveM » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:05 am

Using regular petrol is a huge fire hazard. Locate some proper glow fuel and you should be OK.
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Fuel tank

Postby helen » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:36 am

Hello again , this question probably doesn't have an answer but theres no harm in asking .

The reciever and servos i have are wired up to 4 AA 1.5 batteries and i wondered how much running time i can expect out of them ?

I also have a lithium battery which says on it -

NI-Cd Battery 6KR - 1300SC 7.2V 1300mAh , charge at 130mA for 14 - 16 hours . Sanyo . Ripmax . Cadonica .

Yet it has a 2 pin male connection and i cannot find anything it fits to ?

Anyway at present i am choosing a fuel tank and given the size of the boat i could probably use a gallon tank if i chose , but i thought if i had some idea of how long the batteries last and how quickly these engines burn fuel i could get the max running time before changing the battery and fuelling at the same time without adding un-neccesary weight .

I would be grateful for any suggestions or advice .

Thanks in advance Helen .
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Postby SteveM » Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:28 am

With a .45 glow motor you'd want a tank in the 12oz to 18oz range for general playing. Anything larger adds weight once filed and you'd likely need a bit of a break from driving anyway. Glow motors don't really like slow putting around speeds so keep that in mind. A new set of alkaline batteries should last the day unless you have some extraneous strain on the servos in the boat causing high drain.
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Postby helen » Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:57 am

Thanks again Steve M i'm beginning to think you work here .

The best i can work out is 18oz = about half a litre i think ?

This boat is 48 inches long and about 14 inches wide or 4ft x 1ft and it seems a shame not to take advantage of its size to allow it to run a full 4 hours if possible without it having to be restarted .

4 hours is more than long enough for all the kids to get bored of it and longer than i'd like to sit in a cafe drinking coffee !

To simplify how long would you guess a litre of fuel would last assuming the engine is to be run at full throttle ?
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Postby helen » Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:49 am

Chiefss i'm starting to wonder what the ss stands for ?

Its taken me a day to learn that gravity will feed the fuel as long as i add a breather pipe and the breather can be used to limit the flow of fuel , the smaller the breather the less flow etc .

The correct fuel mix is dictated by the glow plug , the hotter the plug the less combustable the fuel needs to be or else you will be wasting power and fuel and hurting your engine .

The ehxaust will give the best indication of the correct fuel air mix because to much fuel will exit with exhaust gas .

My guy used to race bikes he says reliability should be quite easily found and this is the basis for any power increase .

All engines can be tuned to produce more power but the ultimate increase depends wholely on the strength of components parts , unfortunately the only way to find the component limits is tune it until it breaks .

I found Glow fuel ready mixed at £6 a litre and so following the above i need only try the hottest the coldest and a medium glow plug to get the results im happy with .
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Postby chiefss » Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:33 pm

Too much trouble to explain finding the correct length for a tuned pipe or even how they work for that matter. Easier to use it as an expensive muffler. She didn't say what engine but if it is a dedicated marine engine it's ported for pipe use. It might idle but it will still use loads of expensive (over there) fuel.

I liked the part about setting the fuel mixture by just changing the plug. Oh well, cest la vie.

I found that in starting out with boats the Tunnel hulls were the easiest way to start out. K&B made outboards that were fairly easy to set up and not all that expensive.
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Postby helen » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:20 am

Can't reply every time i try by the time i've wrote it i have to sign in and lose everything i written ?
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Postby propwobble » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:40 pm

"SS" stands for Shutzstaffel. Himmler is hiding in his basement.

I found the following on the web because I only have small experience with the cut and try method. Not for the math challenged.

Pipe length is decided by rpm, exhaust timing and speed of sound within the exhaust system. The last part should remain almost the same whatever you do to the exhaust timing or rpm.
1. If you increase the exhaust timing and rpm stays the same then pipe length is longer.
2. If you increase the rpm but exhaust timing stays the same then the pipe length has to be shorter.

If you can measure the rpm of your motor and exhaust timing, then you can use a simple calculation to show how much you need to change the pipe length when altering ex timing and rpm. Here are some simple calculations for gas engines where the exhaust gas temperature is not affected by nitro content and varying fuel settings.
(For these calculations you can measure the pipe length between whatever points you want to, but the norm is from plug to widest part of cone.)

Pipe length from manifold face to widest part of front cone. = L
Exhaust timing = E
Constant = K
rpm =R
If rpm is 15,000, exhaust timing is 175degrees (duration) and pipe length is 13" then....

Firstly you work out the constant for your set up. So...

K = R x L K = 15,000 x 13 = 11.14"
------------------ -----------------
E 175

In this example that would give a K number of 1114 and as I wrote before, K will remain the same whatever you do...
If you want the engine to rev at 16,000, the equation changes to...

L= E x K therefore L = 175 x 1114 = 12.18
------------- ---------------
R 16,000

This would make the new pipe length 12.18" or 309mm.

If you wanted to increase exhaust timing to 180 degrees and run at 17,000rpm then the length L would be 11.79" or 302mm.
Last edited by propwobble on Sat Nov 28, 2009 9:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby propwobble » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:42 pm

Trying to explain two stroke engine theory and how a tuned pipe works and it's applications in a forum like this one is asking a bit much. To forgo trying to educate someone without two stroke experience, on tuned pipe theory is not in the least bit selfish or an indicator of intent to discourage learning; for purposes of a forum like this one, it is wise and appropriate due to nature of the forum. Why not learn the basic and then move to specific questions? There are plenty of sites where one can gain a basic understanding of both subjects. For hours of putting around you might consider a four cycle engine.
Here are a few to check out:


http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/tunedpipetheory2.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_engine http://www.deepscience.com/articles/engines.html
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Postby helen » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:05 pm

The grey boat here is my hull

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2cW0-pqiM

The boat in the vid is more than fast enough and as my hull will support 3 decks and super structure i would hope this little engine might just move the extra weight .

Oh i forgot ... i'll never get it running without expert help .

Where might i get a diploma in toy engines ?
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Postby Frank Klenk » Wed Sep 16, 2009 4:13 pm

Hi Helen

Let me be the first to welcome you to MECOA. I see the "welcoming" committee has beat me to it :roll:
First let's all take a deep breath ...................................................
Steve has obviously given you sound advice. As he remarked you have a converted aircraft engine with a standard muffler and not the tuned pipe setup. My take is you wish for your children to have some fun with the boat. Steve is always positive and gives good advice with a smile. Remember boys, she wants her kids to have some boat fun, not win a drag race. Granted that may come later, but for now it's fun.
Edited.

Regards
Frank 8)
Last edited by Frank Klenk on Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby propwobble » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:51 pm

Converted airplane engine; missed that part and it sure changes things.
My apologies for blathering on and if any comments were inaccurate. Kids? missed that too. Maybe she will teach them.


I still think the new boater should avail herself or kids, if there are some, of the wealth of beginner information available on the web. As with chiefss, I believe there is no substitute for an in-person mentor and a healthy respect for these "toys".

PM to you Frank for a more in depth reply to your social commentary.
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Postby fnhaddo » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:01 pm

:?: :cry: .
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Postby fnhaddo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:24 pm

recommend you read this post by "Helen". This is the same Helen who says she knows nothing about Glow engines and has no idea what the engine she bought is. This Helen and our Helen are both from England.

www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php? ... ost4193183
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Postby propwobble » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:55 am

Another interesting fact about this thread is how moderator has edited out certain posts resulting in a less than factual picture of the development and content. Editorializing by omission to alter the readers perception of the participants is not an honorable deed.
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:23 am

Yup, all of my posts except one were deleted. I recommend you all check the link that fnhaddo posted. very enlightening to say the least.
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Postby nitro-pilot » Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:51 pm

propwobble wrote:Another interesting fact about this thread is how moderator has edited out certain posts resulting in a less than factual picture of the development and content. Editorializing by omission to alter the readers perception of the participants is not an honorable deed.

Sure it is honorable. What perception were you hoping to read? What Bruce told you it should read like?
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Postby propwobble » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:12 pm

Unless a post violates some code of conduct or rule, it should be left alone. I hope you simply misunderstood and do not support slander. For example, if I say: " Martians are not good people" it has one meaning. If someone edits out the word " not" it means something totally different. My point is that when someone with an axe to grind edits content to further their own end, and deliberately alter the appearance of the speakers demeanor or intent, it is not an honorable act.
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