HB 61 Engine Trouble

HB , Helmet Burnhard, engines, Made in Germany. Owned by RJL Industries since 1989.

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HB 61 Engine Trouble

Postby Cyberwarrior101 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:42 pm

I have a NEW HB 61 Engine that we've had in a box for years. It's in Perfect shape so we thought... Having LOTS of trouble keeping it running. The engine will start sputter and then die.. I read the posts regarding adjustments of the HIgh Speed needle and low, and have tried that.. I've finally put a 4 cycle plug in and it now runs.. the problem ?? It gets HOT.. It will only run with the needle 1 turn out.. very lean.. Then of course will over heat and die.. 2-3 turns it it barely runs, sometimes doesnt start.. I've changed the tank, checked for air leaks in the line, replaced the carb w/ another Perry carb I had on another HB 61 no luck..

At least now I can get it to run, but it runs lean and will eventually die.. If you richen it up, it will not run well nor will you get full power.. In fact full throttle will just eventually sputter and die.. ANY Help I can get would be appreciated.. Ive had nothing but trouble with this engine, yet it's practically brand new.. with the exception of the 4-5 tanks run through trying to get it to be nice..

Thank you!
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Postby chiefss » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:41 pm

Considering everything you've done, it sounds like a fuel problem.
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HB 61 - Problems getting NEW engine to run.

Postby Cyberwarrior101 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:03 pm

I forgot to mention, I've changed fuel and tanks and lines.. I'm running 2/4 cycle, 10% and 15% nitro mix, and will now be trying powermaster 10%..

Not sure what else to do here. besides junk my HB's and get something else...Id hate to do that..

Thanks!
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Postby chiefss » Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:40 pm

There are three reason's an engine won't run, Fuel problem, Glow plug problem or the engine is damaged some way.
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Postby Cyberwarrior101 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:33 pm

I just took the carb off put it on my other HB 61 and it works great.. so not sure what to do w/ this motor.. new but doesnt run right.. checked all the screws, popped the head off things look normal.. any suggestions??
Does MECOA still work on these engines if I send it in for maintenenace?
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Postby loucrane » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:18 am

Cy,

Everything else seems to check out, so one thing that might be involved is the piston pin. Over long storage times, they can get gummed solid to the conrod, off center from where they should run, and tend to tilt the piston in the sleeve.

That can cause a lot of drag, which can cause hot running and difficulty setting for throttling and continuous runs. Such a condition might show up in the exhaust oil - which may carry a bit more grey or black from chafed metal.

To check, remove the backplate and see if the rod slides freely on the piston pin. A small Allen key can serve as a "hook" under the rod...

If it isn't stuck, the problem is elsewhere. If it is, a penetrating oil, wicked down the rod to the small end bearing, and some push-pull with the Allen key may loosen it up. If you have some small fuel tubing, you can cover the working end of the key to prevent marring the rod...

If a penetrating oil frees it up, make sure there's a better oil on the working surface before buttoning the engine up. E.g., slosh some fuel in there and work the shaft a bit to distribute it.

Luck!
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:45 pm

How can the con rod move on the wrist pin. It's fore and aft motion is limited by the distance it can move on the crank pin and that ain't much. Almost nothing. Plus the fact that sitting in a box, the engine is sideways and therefore nothing, ie gravity, will make the rod move foreward or backward. To even move a tiny bit the engine would have to be pointing straight up or down.
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HB 61 - Problems getting NEW engine to run.

Postby Cyberwarrior101 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:28 pm

I'll give it a look and see.. I"ve not yet opened up the back of the engine to see if there is any gunk or anything as it was new.. I'll check tomorrow and report back. The Second engine so far has been working great so I know it wasnt a "carb" issue as the original carb is operating fine on the second one.

Thanks for the input.
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Gummed piston pin

Postby loucrane » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:58 am

ChiefSS,

You'd be surprised, as I have been dozens of times over the past 50 years or so, at how a hard-gummed rod small end can miss being precisely aligned where it needs to be...

I agree with your theorizing about position, and can only offer actual experience, repeated many, many times, to consider why I offered the idea.

OBTW, no offense taken...
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:50 pm

I have taken apart hundreds of engines over the years and the amount of play that the rod has on the crankpin is negligable. If the lower end isn't moving fore and aft, the upper end isn't either. The crankshaft limits the forward motion and the back plate limits the rearward motion. The small amount it can move has no effect on how the engine runs. As a matter of fact, the old Saito 80 and 90 twins used a fork and tongue lower end and the upper end was NOT centered on the wrist pin and they ran fine.

The next time you take an engine apart. Put the rod back on the crank and then put the backplate on. There will be very little motion of the rod and what there is will have no effect on the way the engine runs?.

No offense taken either.
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Postby chiefss » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:55 pm

Whoops, it wasn't the Saito twins it was the G-mark twins that had the offset rods.
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Postby ron bennett » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:22 am

The connecting rod discussion has nothing to do with any of the symptom you described. It is very common for a ringed engine that has been put away uncleaned and oiled to have the ring get stuck. You will still feel some compression with a stuck ring, but the blow-by will be so grat , the engine will not run and may not even fire on a prime.

A simple fix is to pull the piston, carefully remove the ring and clean the ring and the grove - refit the ring and you will be good-to-go, as they say in racing. Do be VERY careful removing the ring since it is "glued" into the ring grove with dry Castor oil and is very easy to break as a result. I like to heat the piston/ring in a toaster oven to about 250 degree F and then spray or drop on some penatrating oil or brake cleaner to try to loosen the ring before removal. Take your time removing the ring so as to NOT break it. It's easier than it sounds.

Good luck,

Ron Bennett
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Postby chiefss » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:25 pm

I just checked the total forward/ backward motion the rod can move on an OS45FSR, and OS 46FX, an OS 61FSR, and a Saito FA45. The maximum was .015 inches which isn't enough to make any difference on how any of them would run.
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Postby ron bennett » Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:09 am

Bruce is absolutely right in the "real world" sense that rod end play has now real difference on performance.

But, in the racing world, where 50 RPM difference is the difference between winng and loosing, it matters. One of the most remakable engines I have had the previlege to pull down is one of Fedotov's CA90s F2A engines. He not only tapered the crank pin by 0.001 so the rod runs on the face of the crank, he made thin and light spacers to keep the con rod running in the same position on the wrist pin. Then he critically set the backspace on the bearings to +/- 0.0005 so the rod runs dead center in the bore. This all gave him another 100 RPM.

Ron Bennett
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Postby chiefss » Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:32 pm

That may be all well and true but as far as this thread is concerned, the tiny movement of the rod would not have any noticable effect on engine performance. Most engines will show a 100 rpm variation while running normally. Most tachs are only accurate to 100 rpm anyway. As far as the motion of the rods on the engines I measured, the actual movement from centered on the crankpin would only be half of the total movement which was .015 inches. Half of that would be .0075 inches. The engine wouldn't even notice this.
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Postby dennis » Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:38 pm

If I remember correctly the HB engines were old technolegy, iron ,steel piston/liner set up. Perhaps you really are faced with the fact that you need to run in the motor and not expect plug and play with it. =You will comsistantly overhaet with a set up light as described untill you do some mating of the parts. Also don't expect a good idle until this is accomplished.
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Postby MECOA » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:44 pm

Most HB 61's had a dykes ring. NOT OLD TECHNOLOGY. ABC isn't the greatest and since it came out in the 70's isn't it old technology too?

The only iron piston/steel liner HB's were the .12 .15 and .20 all others used rings.

check FAQ's listed on our website...

exhaust restriction. Could be casting flash restricting the exhaust
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/overheating/overheating.htm

piston liner installed correct. Baffle opposite the exhaust
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/whichway/piston/piston.htm

check the piston ring
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/rings/unstick.htm
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/abc/abc.htm#ringtype
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Postby dennis » Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:18 pm

MECOA wrote:Most HB 61's had a dykes ring. NOT OLD TECHNOLOGY. ABC isn't the greatest and since it came out in the 70's isn't it old technology too?

The only iron piston/steel liner HB's were the .12 .15 and .20 all others used rings.

check FAQ's listed on our website...

exhaust restriction. Could be casting flash restricting the exhaust
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/overheating/overheating.htm

piston liner installed correct. Baffle opposite the exhaust
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/whichway/piston/piston.htm

check the piston ring
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/rings/unstick.htm
http://www.mecoa.com/faq/abc/abc.htm#ringtype




Actually a dykes ring of the 70's is newer then the iron/steel used by fox and just about everyone else from the 30's up to the late 60's.
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Postby ricfly52 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:55 pm

Cyberwarrior101,

Well believe it or not I have a bit of knowledge of the HB engine.

I was an RC pilot in the US Army in RCMAT units flying radio controlled target drones. We used the HB 61 and it was one of the best we had. It came in several configurations. One was with out throttle, just wide open. Our unit was instrumental in getting the HB with a throttle. It was much easier to control the drones with throttle as you might envision.

My point here is that he HB is a good engine. We had at any one time 500 hundred engines in our store house. When we put one into service it was almost always seized up, just from being stored so long. We would take them before starting them up, and submerge them in after-run oil. We of course took out the glow plug to get oil into the top. After about 12 hours we took them out, sprayed them off with solvent, installed them in the drone and flew it. (Note we did not even run them in) The life expectancy of these drones and engines out in the target area was about 12 minutes, because they were shot at by everything from M-16 to 40 MM anti-aircraft guns!

These are great running engines and should last a long time for you. As long as you don’t shoot at them!
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